Its huge step in the right direction!

What are your thoughts on prohibition "Nucky" :)

legalize of course!

I'd think about shopping on Michigan Ave again.

Finally.!!!!!

I see what your saying steve and its funny! But that would set the movement back a bit. Remember he is right and we are all wrong. He definitely hates America with all his heart though!

Jeff thanks, it was clearly a joke, and I think its a joke IL is the only state you cant carry in.

Steve, I know. Dont worry about the cc law it already passed at the supreme court level its a done deal. Illinois has 180 days now to put it together. What Illinois is gonna try to do is make it real expensive but they will fight that and win too because thats unconstitutional and the supreme court wont stand for that kind of gouging for your 2nd amendment right.

I support the right to CC, but, I do agree that extensive training should be mandatory. Not only on how to handle/shoot a handgun, but, how to deal with the emotional aspects of carrying a firearm. There is no room for mistakes!!

Or an uninsured/underinsured illegal immigrant with a legal driver’s license.

As we've talked about many times, we are something like 17th in violent crime based on FBI stats. I know, you insist that all those numbers provided by the government institutions are false, and only your numbers provided by government employees are true.

As I have stated many times in these gun debates, I agree that CC won't cause a direct increase in violent crime. It won't, however cut down on deaths by gun. As long as people own and find guns, deaths will occur from gun shot wounds. If conceal carry was the only cure for gun violence and violent crime, we would have 49 states with insanely low crime numbers. That isn't the case.

And keep in mind that people that legally conceal carry do shoot innocent people sometimes. It may not be the norm, but it does happen.

Ahh Brian the America hater is back! Those states have less violent crime rate than Chicago you can spin your lies anyway you want. You have no faith in responsible gun owners or your country. If you hate America so much why do you live here?

Remember Jeff, people can disagree. Have you gotten that hug I suggested? If so, it doesn't seem to have made you feel better.

The FBI crime numbers might be lying to me, but at least I have some numbers to look at to contradict your statements. All you have ever done is indirectly quoted friends and relatives and thrown us the big 80% of the worst criminals hunted by the US Marshals are illegal immigrants. I know you feel strongly about this issue, but siting friends doesn't convince me.

I'm not going to be down and sad just because conceal carry is here. I have said before that I knew this day would be coming in IL. I can disagree with it on principle and hope that we (and other states) do our due diligence and educate those who want to carry a firearm. The ability to take someones life shouldn't be able to be purchased for a few hundred dollars and permit without classes and training.

Brian again you are so mis-informed. Of course theirs training involved and classes to get your cc permit! You think they just hand them out? Get out from under your rock and give the upstanding law abiding citizens in Illinois a chance. I get my facts direct from LE FACTS! You get yours from government run websites that tell you what you want to hear. Whats next you want to make cars illegal?

There are three states right now that don't require a permit (AZ, AK, VT). Make sure you know what you are talking about as well.

What about the hundreds of Illinois cops that called in this morning to the Mancow show & several other stations 100% of them were for the conceal & carry.

I think Wyoming is as well now.

Boy this Brian guy sure is an idiot! He will also have you believe that guns are animated objects and they get up all by themselves and start shooting people.

I won't go so far as that, but you can't shoot someone if you don't have a gun. Yes, you can still hurt or kill them other ways, but you definitely can't shoot them

Brian the gun laws in Illinois are the strictest in the nation! Thats not good enough for you? Of course theres gonna be safety classes involved in Illinois and probably even more classes on top of that to be able to get a cc permit here. It will also be sanctioned through the state police as well as the mandatory federal checks that are done here and in all other states. Their not just going to go door to door and hand these things out like like you think. Get a fricken clue! You have lost the supreme court has already ruled.

Right, which is why i said nationwide. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth to try and prove your point? I also know that they won't force everyone to get a permit who doesn't want one. I'm not talking about everyone, just people that will apply to get a CC permit. Some states have large restrictions on those, a few don't. Since it will now be a nationwide law in some sort, we should have a nationwide law concerning this. Again, like a car a gun is a big responsibility. There are criminal and background checks when you purchase, yes...but as we have seen, people change. Which again, like a car, we shouldn't be bummed if you had to retake the test and checks. It wouldn't effect the so called "responsible" gun owners...just the guys like some of our recent mass shooters who lost it, but still bought their guns legally.

Brian when you get a clue come back to the post.. NOT!

Nucky you stole that from me! God bless you!

Jeff, your eloquence is surpassed only by your razor sharp wit. You rant, rave, and get mad at me and all you do to respond is pretend I'm inferring things that I am not. I don't think you all need to agree with me, I don't hate guns, I'm just not a huge fan of concealed carry. You have now twice wanted to me meet somewhere to fight over our difference of opinion. When confronted with a post (albeit sarcastic) about wanting to kill people like me, you decreed that would set the CC movement back...not anything about not shooting people who disagree with you. You need to ask yourself again who here is actually upset that not everyone agrees with him.

Calm down....again, if I remember right, you are young, retired military, and a retired business owner. It sounds like you shouldn't have this much to be upset about.

It must be fun to argue while completely making stuff up about other people. You should run for office sometime. You've decided that I hate America because I don't agree with you, the sole representative of the U.S.A....I have no clue how you decided I hate teachers. You'll never hear that one from me, did your sources come up with that?

And I suppose you can call it obsession, but it's really on from the fact that it seems like with your resume you shouldn't be harboring this much ill will towards people who don't agree with you. If you want to think I'm jealous, that's fine. If it will make you happy go ahead.

What else was there? Oh yeah. I hate vets I guess as well? And you came up with that because I disagree with you also. I don't hate you, both my grandfathers, my uncle, my teammates or all of your service..I don't even know you. All i have ever said is that I disagree with you on certain things. So again...relax...just a little.

And as for the toll booth school, i didn't even know there was one. Maybe that's why I didn't get that job. I guess I'll never know.

I'm really not mad. You once again just make stuff up to try and irritate me...online (way to go champ). As I said before...I've got no ill will here. You can pull out all the cool insults implying my mom and I are prostitutes, that's what the internet is for. At least it seems like you finally got a little happier on that last post...I guess that's something i can take from this.

For the 100th time, we're never going to agree on the whole here, and that's fine. If you want to think that I want a country full of drones who agree with me, also fine. I, on the other hand, like the fact that we can disagree. I like coming here to occasionally have an intelligent discussion/argument on big social issues. I guess my only hope is that you got a smile somewhere in there out of all this. Cheers my friend.

jef stop I cant stop laughing now OMG dude thats funny even Brian had to laugh a bit at that last crack and steve lol lol lol

@RAT You have to understand that Brian is right and your wrong! Everything in the Illinois General Assembly has to go through him! lol

That's very true Tony, but we're not talking about cars, we're talking about guns. We also full on accept and live with the fact that you need to register all your cars, insure them, and get a special license to drive them (requiring written and practical tests). There are states in which you can turn 21, buy a gun and essentially put it in your pocket. What is wrong with requiring a national education and safety training course for all Conceal Carry permits to be issued?

If you want to compare gun ownership to driving a car, fine...but be sure to mention that the same restrictions should apply.

They do.

You have to have a permit in WY to carry a side arm all the guides I deal with all had to take the class to get the permit at least in the last few years anyway.

Yes, in some states, and I would assume Illinois well end up being the same. But there are plenty of restrictions on cars as state and national laws. Things you can't drive legally on the road, renewing your registration every year, requirements to retest after a certain amount of years. If they are both deadly (and studies have shown that they are) why do we say that it's fine for cars to be treated this way, but guns should have as few restrictions as possible?

That's really my main point here.

He wants tot outlaw cars too. In his pea brain mind their is no human error its the guns fault, the cars fault, the lakes fault because someone fell in and drowned.

I did say that...didn't I....oh well. Or, I could have said we can treat cars and guns the same and put the same types of laws on guns.

Why do you all get so mad when I bring up ideas to try and make this law safer nationwide? I'm not naive, I know we will never ban guns here. So why not require legal gun owners to show proof of a safety class? When I received my motorcycle license, I took a class...i think for 30 dollars (which was refundable afterwards if I so desired). What would be the harm in something like that? More educated gun owners?

People who buy guns legally still have accidents, still keep them where kids can grab them, snap and kill others. Yes, it doesn't happen everyday, but better education on the matter never hurts.

@Brian - where are the stats that show that gun control laws lower crime rates? Gun control advocates demand to take away rights as guaranteed in the Constitution - they better be able to show significant benefit.

As for the argument that you need to register a car - no where in the Constitution does it mention the right to travel around by vehicle or other mode of transportation - gun ownership IS mentioned though, and was ruled an INDIVIDUAL right by the SC.

Yes, It would!

exactly! It will be mandatory 100% and the more strict in Illinois than anywhere else which is good.

The point of carrying concealed is for the government to recognize they can't protect everyone all the time, and to recognize that citizens who choose to take responsibility for self-defense to be able to do so legally. Today's government, especially liberal Democrats, depends on individuals not needing to care for themselves, and relying on "the government" to look after their every need.

Chicago's gun control history is racist in its roots and foundation, and if the good citizens would recognize this and demand a fair chance to at least try to save their families' lives, elected plantation masters like Rahm and Quinn would be exposed for the frauds they are.

@vortex You got it! People still need to understand too that they just don't hand these permits out. A well trained gun educated citizen is a blessing for all. The criminals dont train, they dont have a waiting period to buy a firearm, they have no violence tax to pay like cook co. does now. Meanwhile the law abiding citizen is waiting for your FOID card and someone breaks into your house and rapes,robs or kills you..as far as cc permit if you think you need then you now have the option to get it.

lol

can I get an appointment with her? how does this work?

Brian when you get educated on guns and gun laws let us know! Innocent people everyday get killed by criminals with guns way more than getting killed by a responsible gun owner defending his life. We had no population back then and not much crime either your living in the past once again! I do business in all 50 states and 17 countries, Most of the states that I do business in I visit and have many friends there. They all have cc laws and there violent crime rates are much lower than ours. You hate guns because you are under the belief that people are going to get their cc permits here in Illinois and run out in the street and start shooting people!

Responsible gun owners are the most responsible people I have ever seen, met or done business with. You want the 2nd amendment only open to YOUR interpretation and thats it. Their not just going to knock on everyone's doors Brian and hand out cc permits. Most gun legit gun owners here wont even get them anyway...some will that feel they might need them but they are going to have to get educated first. The training and classes here will be more strict than in any other state in the country. They are also ran through the state police and the same federal background check as all other states.

Until you actually read what I write and put some thought into your response, I'm not going to keep this up. You keep throwing out Illinois as the highest violent crime rate based on things you have heard, you keep inferring that I want you all to bend to my will when all i am doing is presenting my opinion and waiting for you to give a dissenting thought. All you do is throw insults and make up arguments that you want to counter.

I don't think CC holders will shoot up the streets and I know most people that get them are responsible gun owners. That doesn't change the fact that it just equals more guns on the streets. I also know illinois will have strict laws concerning CC, but there are states in this country that don't. So I'm concerned with the law as a blanket.

Guess you dont believe in the constitution huh? Radical!

Brian when you get educated on guns and gun laws let us know! Innocent people everyday get killed by criminals with guns way more than getting killed by a responsible gun owner defending his life. We had no population back then and not much crime either your living in the past once again! I do business in all 50 states and 17 countries, Most of the states that I do business in I visit and have many friends there. They all have cc laws and there violent crime rates are much lower than ours. You hate guns because you are under the belief that people are going to get their cc permits here in Illinois and run out in the street and start shooting people!

Responsible gun owners are the most responsible people I have ever seen, met or done business with. You want the 2nd amendment only open to YOUR interpretation and thats it. Their not just going to knock on everyone's doors Brian and hand out cc permits. Most gun legit gun owners here wont even get them anyway...some will that feel they might need them but they are going to have to get educated first. The training and classes here will be more strict than in any other state in the country. They are also ran through the state police and the same federal background check as all other states.

Brian, unfortunately the judge has probably shot down the ban with his ruling. Now, we have to hope the General Assembly has the brass to have some controls about who can conceal carry. Primarily, other than the usual suspects I would like to see some sort of testing about reciprocity with other States. Some States do a terrible job of removing newly convicted felons from the CC list. Also, it's time for a Federal Assault Weapon ban. These Constitutional CC windbags will be against it, so be it.

I can tell you one thing for sure RB When they come out with the new Illinois requirements & laws to get your cc permit they will be the strictest,most informative and most complex law you have ever seen and they should be 100%

Brian, I never said one time that Illinois was the most violent state? All I said was the other states that have cc laws have less violent crimes committed than we do.

But jeff, by default if CC states have lower violent crime than us, that makes us the worst....right?

Seriously Jeff? I thought we were actually having a real discussion for a second. All I wanted was for you to clear up what you mean.

When you say "All I said was the other states that have cc laws have less violent crimes committed than we do." and all 49 states have CC, doesn't that mean we have the most violent crime?

Jeff, why do you keep making things up rather than answer a really easy question? And if you can find any posts with me bashing unions i would love to see them. I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that you made up the thing about violent crime.

I never did say anything about unions....but that's ok. I was however making fun of your awful grammar and spelling in the D300 article.

Nothing like a good old internet fight to make you feel like a real man, eh Jeff? Throw in some cheap mom jokes and an awesome rhyme for my name and you got yourself a winner. Alright. I'm done here. You've made this quite unproductive.

Brian I do not agree with you on this subject, but the disrespect for you opinions is very sad. And the folks that make violent comments, well freedom of speech goes so far and some of you crossed the line. I can only hope your FOID is pulled if you apply for a CC.

Brian- I don't agree with some of what you stated about gun control statistics, etc.... However, I would like to say how much I appreciate the way you handled the idiocy spewing from those other posters. Let them rant and rave and insult; it really just make them sound like uneducated idiots and invalidates any weight that their arguments may have had. Meanwhile, your calm, well reasoned responses show you to be an informed, well meaning contributor to society who can respect an idiot's First Amendment rights without sinking to their level. Whether I agree with your opinions or not, I'd much rather count you as a fellow American than those ignorant jerks any nday. Way to go.

Go make us some food

Just watch out for CRYIN BRIAN!

I want one but I heard theres a waiting list how do I get on it? Is she full? lol Yuck!

Nucky!!! I saw you on an espn post about urlacher!!!

Finley is an idiot go bears

Yeah the Bears rock Im a fan no matter what! Not like the wagon jumping GB fans

Have no fear, right here!

Personally, I'm waiting to see what kind of distorted law Illinois tries to foist on the law-abiding citizens who wish to carry concealed and whether or not that'll end up back in Court. Or whether they fool around, drag their feet, and end up in Court again for missing the deadline.

I understand it's the holiday season and all, but if I were the Judge, I'd have given them 30 days to get it done.

They gave Illinois 180 days to come up with their version. Illinois will try to make it extremely expensive to get the permit but the supreme court will probably not let them get away with that. Lets hope.

Hey Greenberg, aren't you the guy who was Drew Petersons lawyer?

Sorry Stevie, I'm not, nor have I ever claimed to be an attorney. And I don't know who Mr. Peterson had for representation.

Need option "all of the above for you"

millie, you've hurt my feelings. Why would you suggest such a thing?

Forgetting any Concealed Carry or gun laws in general, I just would like to know where some people are pulling the idea of the state of Illinois having the highest crime rate. This isn't trying to be inflammatory, if we do then fine, but I can't find anything that shows we are number 1 in crime except for a few people here saying we are. According to multiple sources, we aren't first by any means.

Statistics are a useful tool for people who wish to deceive or hide from the facts. Chicago ranks first in murders, so your attempt to use nebulous terms like crime, and include the entire state for comparison reasons allows your biased narrative to circulate once again.

I'm biased? Someone wrote that Illinois has the highest crime rate. It's simply not true. Sorry that facts got in the way of your narrative, they're nasty little buggers.

No one cares about terms of use Claudia.

Well, since you asked two questions, I'll assume you just meant the second. To the first, that isn't really the point I'm trying to come across with. I don't believe it will raise crime in the same way I don't believe it will lower the overall numbers either.

By not allowing it, CC, (which i know all 50 have it now, so this is hypothetical in nature) we would effectively reduce the number of guns on the street. We still need to do more to stop the wrong people from getting guns, but that is another issue all together. Having Concealed Carry laws doesn't stop crime from happening on the whole. It can stop you from being victimized, and maybe the person standing near you..but the criminal will still commit his crime down the line. It's just shifting the problem to someone else.

I'll bite. I've moved on based upond the judge's ruling and hope that Illinois puts some laws in place so CC has proper controls in Illinois. Particularly, I'm concerned about reciprocity with States that do a poor job of yanking permits from felons. We should have no reciprocity. Secondly, I'm hoping there's a way to keep assault weapons out of the hands of anyone other than law enforcement. The doom sayers will think that they need the, just in case the police attack, but they can have pitch forks and muzzle loaders if they want strict constitution adherence to protect the homeland from ourselves. Thirdly, anyone with multiple misdomeaners should not be able to carry. Felons plead down frequently and this will somewhat protect us from wife beaters and other violent people who simply pleaded guilty and got a reduced sentence. They clearly can't control their temper and should not carry.

Brian,
" I don't believe it will raise crime ..."
"It can stop you from being victimized, and maybe the person standing near you..."
So it won't raise crime, and it will save innocent people from becoming victims. Thanks for that unsolicited endorsement for Concealed Carry.

RB,
"The doom sayers will think that they need the, just in case the police attack, but they can have pitch forks and muzzle loaders if they want strict constitution adherence to protect the homeland from ourselves."

Ah I see. When I exercise my Constitutional rights, they are interpreted in the narrowest possible terms and are limited to the standards of the day the Constitution was written. Very well. I accept your interpretation of the Constitution. I will agree to limit myself to muskets. But since the Constitution as written in 1789 was intended to limit the powers of the Federal government to only those tasks listed in Article 1, Section 8, and since neither charity, nor government sponsored health care plans, nor retirement plans like Soc Sec were tasks assigned to the Federal government in 1789... you are now obligated to join me in my effort to dismantle those programs and return our government to it's strictly limited roles.

Welcome aboard. Let's get to work.

(You had fair warning.)

Gary, using part of what I said without acknowledging the rest doesn't really do much to prove a point. Just like selective stats, selective quoting can be misused as well. Using the first part of a sentence without the qualifier to negate it doesn't mean i support concealed carry.

I agree that people who are DRINKING should not engage in CC. But simply being someplace where alcohol is served shouldn't preclude one from engaging in CC, so long as the CC permit holder is NOT drinking.

This works well in other States, there's no reason why it can't work here. Requiring all persons to become unarmed merely turns those areas into victim zones if some criminal decides to commit a criminal act. Unfortunately, as we've seen many times across the Nation, criminals don't respect "Gun Free Zone" signs.

I seem to recall a shooting at a restaurant in Texas. The restaurant had a "no guns" sign posted so the law-abiding were unarmed and "easy pickin's" for the criminal that came into the restaurant and started shooting patrons. One woman who was a CC holder, left her firearm in the car. She was unable to defend her father from the criminal when the criminal shot her dad in the head - pretty much right in front of her.

So make it simple - ZERO BAC while CC.

Makes sense David, but how on earth would something like be monitored other than a "scouts honor" sort of deal?

We've heard a lot about these victim zones, but isn't arming everyone a band aid to solving the initial problem? If the problem is people bringing in guns to shoot others, shouldn't we focus on stopping that from happening? Just allowing more guns to the party seems like a very short sighted fix.

I know the world, especially our country, is an imperfect place where there will always be bad people. It's just hard for me to get past the mentality of "if they try and wrong/harm/shoot me, i get to pull a gun/shoot them." We always have these long discussions and we never really address the fact that guns are readily available for everyone. It's a weapon that can be used to defend, threaten, and ultimately kill. It shouldn't be so easy to obtain one...especially illegally.

You don't have to monitor it at all. If something happens involving a CC permit holder, and the Police have reasonable suspicion to believe the person has been drinking - they give the holder a Breathalyzer test - anything other than 0.000 BAC means they have more investigation to do (i.e., receipts for alcohol purchase, review security tapes at the restaurant, talk to servers, etc.) - then pull that person's permit and hold them accountable via some appropriate method depending upon what happened.

Unfortunately focusing on keeping the guns out of an area is a nice idea, but ultimately unworkable. As we saw in the Colorado theater shooting - the criminal just went out the back door and came back in. There's also other kinds of weapons that one can commit mayhem with that wouldn't show up on a metal detector. There was a theater where some patron stabbed another patron in the neck with a meat thermometer (it could have easily have been a pencil). The only thing you can do is accept that bad things happen on occasion, and be prepared to deal with it as best you can.

If you're in fear for your life, you should be able to defend yourself. That's the way it's been for millenia, and that's the way it should be because it puts the criminals on notice that they can be harmed during their attacks, and that may just give them pause.

As for getting one illegally - criminals will always do that. And it shouldn't prevent the law-abiding from obtaining weapons if they wish.

I should change that, since i don't know that for sure, but there are two separate profiles for her. I suppose she could have made another.

It won't

I see your point, but the people guarding him are trained in security and the use of the guns. It loops back to one of the things I mentioned I would like to see with a national CC law instead of individual states doing whatever they want. In order to obtain a permit to carry a weapon, concealed or otherwise, you should be required to pass a few tests (eg: practical in firing and gun care, written in defense laws and situational laws)

I've got news for you - many CC holders are actually better trained than the "security" or cops because they go practice more often. This isn't to disparage anyone - I know plenty of cops who take the time to practice regularly - some more often than is departmentally mandated. And there's quite a few who only do the minimum, so their targeting scanners are off a bit :-)

As for the passing a few tests - forget it. Once you let that camel get its nose under the tent, it'll wreck it because the tests will become so onerous that even RoboCop wouldn't be able to pass them.

All you need is a background check - make sure they're not a felon or adjudged mentally incompetent/insane by a Court of competent jurisdiction, and make sure they've completed a training class with a certified firearms instructor. Don't mandate the content of the class - simply that a certified instructor has signed off on their application.

If the government wants people to regularly attend a range and fire off a certain number of rounds to "stay sharp" - then the Government should give them the ammunition for free to do so, otherwise it'd be tantamount to an illegal taking of property under the 5th Amendment to the Constitution.

Remember: The criminals aren't going to do any of this. They don't care. You want to make it as easy as possible on the LAW ABIDING so they can protect themselves when seconds count.

To just say that many CC holders are better shots is a pretty broad and unfounded statement. I more than happy to say that in the grand scheme it may even out on who is better shot, because there are many law enforcement and security officers who hit the ranges as well.

A background check won't tell you anything about someones ability to fire a gun at another person in a pressure situation. It won't tell you if the CC holder will just pull the trigger on someone without some warning or identifying themselves. That's how people end up shooting a relative out of quick reaction. (see recent stories of the step son shot late at night and the young girl shot because her uncle thought she was a skunk.)

I had mentioned classes before, but I see your point about ammunition costing a lot....especially over time. But if you say most of these people practice a lot, then just passing a test shouldn't be hard without classes...even forgetting the practical section thereof.

If it's a constitutional right to carry a weapon for the reason of defense, intended to instill the threat of death on other citizens, how is it a bad thing to ask that people be educated in the matter in order to own one?

It's not a bad thing per se to ask people to be educated on using firearms safely, but to allow the Government to mandate the form of the education becomes tantamount to a ban because then no one (or virtually no one) can meet the requirements.

Let's talk about the form of a test for a minute. Let's assume that a "good shot" is someone who can hit the target within the bullseye, or the two/three rings outside of it. Their groupings are good too (meaning that they're all in basically the same area - not all over the place).

We consider them a "good shot" today. Then we go along in time and decide we have to tighten up the requirements for whatever reason. At what point is it too onerous? What about when we get to the point that all you're allowed to hit are bullseyes, all in the same hole (vis a vis "William Tell") - arguably that leaves out people who are good shots but aren't sniper-quality (and most snipers aren't able to make that kind of shot either).

What about the elderly person who can't get out of the wheelchair, but arms himself to protect against neighborhood thugs? Do we then make exceptions? For whom? How does one qualify for them? How is one excluded from those exceptions?

There's too much vagueness in letting the Government set the terms and conditions of a test. And then there's the whole concept of having to take a test to exercise a creator-endowed right to consider...

Intended to instill the threat of death on other citizens?? Huh? Brian, The cc permit gives you the right to carry outside your home you can then defend yourself outside of your home with a firearm if your attacked. Responsible Illinois gun owners aren't going to go get their cc permits and go riot in the streets and look for trouble. Most of them won't even apply for it in the first place. If you dont like the back ground checks the states and feds do then go complain to them. You can list all your little stories you want but the criminals dont get a back ground check, they don't need a FOID card, they have no waiting period to go get their guns which are readily available to them anywhere. The damage,death caused by criminals with guns is millions times more than accidents caused by a legal responsible gun owners.

Exactly! and that pause is whats going to save your life 9 times out of 10 before the gun would even get fired anyway. CC guns save lives everyday and never get fired! Somebody gets it on here!

Jeff, I thought we were done. Can we have this discussion like big boys this time around? Where you actually read what I put and keep even keeled? I never said they would riot in the streets with their guns or that all of them will just shoot willy nilly. There are some people (and it may be a small amount) that end up killing people they don't intend to. My point on the "intended to instill the threat to kill" is what carrying a gun is about, is it not? If you had a CC, what is the final point? If someone attacks you, you have the means to threaten them with possible death by shooting. You may not have to shoot, but the intent has to be there in order for the criminal to be frightened.

I also never said I had a problem with background checks and waiting periods. I was merely stating that they won't always find the problems and won't educate gun owners in any way.

Now please...don't get fired up and cause this go off the rails like a freight train again. Just responding to your accusations on what you believe I think.

David, as I'm sure you remember, we have had many conversations on this matter usually revolving around the same things. I feel like we have enough info to write some large essays with opposing view points.

I understand your concerns but it is just a slippery slope concept that you are worrying about. Every single instance of any law or requirement can always be countered with a what if statement. We would have no laws or regulations on anything if the only reason to not pass them is "what will happen when we change the laws to be more strict?"

Yes, there may be more strict tests down the road, but on the same token, there may not be. Things may stay status quo. We have had testing to be able to drive for a long time now, and I can't think of harm that it has caused. People may not pay attention to laws and just pass the tests and forget everything they learned (in either gun or auto classes/tests) but if one out of ten becomes safer, it' a good thing.

If you have that many problems, then maybe we start with it not being mandatory to take the safety classes (like getting your Motorcycle or car license) but offer an incentive to take the class instead. Scrap any practical test, just make it written. Lower costs for a Concealed Carry permit if you pass the safety class first. Something along those lines.

No it is to protect not to kill. You still don't get it. Your not packing heat with the intent to go out to "kill" Responsible gun owners if they so wish with a cc can leave their home with their weapon for protection and self defense they don't go out to purposely kill. If they are attacked by someone and their life is in danger they can now defend themselves if the bad guy gets killed thats self defense and is an action of one defending his or herself.

Right it is self defense, I understand completely. I know they aren't going out with the specific intent to kill. But what I am saying is that in order for that defense mechanism (a concealed weapon) to work, there has to be a threat of something happening. In this case the criminal is supposed to worried that you might have a gun. He's not worried that you might show it to him, he is worried that you might kill him.

So in all here, I'm saying that whenever a gun is brought somewhere (by a criminal or CC permit holder) the threat ends up the same but for different reasons. The criminal wants you to be scared of dying so you will give him your wallet, succumb to rape....any reason, while you want him to be scared of dying for wanting to do those. Your intention is obviously more noble and right, but we're still saying the gun is a tool to impose a threat of pain or death.

No its not to impose its to protect big difference and when your being threatened with your life the reasons don't matter anymore to the criminal.

Alright, maybe if I use different wording. You're looking at threat the wrong way. You aren't threatening him the sense of being an assailant. You (the CC holder) are not the threat in this scene. Death or wounding is the threat. You are definitely defending yourself from his threat of...let's say a mugging. He's threatening to mug you at knife point. You pull your gun to be a defender. Why is he scared at that point? Because you might shoot him and he might die. Therefore, he is afraid of death by gunshot. He knows the threat may be real, so he runs instead. That's what I mean here.

I don't think conceal carry holders will kill us all. By no means do I think that. I just don't feel that this is the proper way to curb violence and more specifically, gun violence. If two guns happen to be pulled, someone has a chance to die by gun shot. Yes, if the assailant dies he may have deserved it. I just don't feel that either of you should be shot in the street.

You just described self defense with out the intent to kill! Nice job! Hes only afraid by death by gunshot after he threatens "after" and after the gun comes out for protection not intent to kill from the beginning.

Right, in that exact scenario. But the whole point here is that he is supposed to be worried about dying by your gun so he won't even try to commit the crime.

You still don't get it how is he worried about dying by your gun when he doesn't know you have it? After he attacks and you defend yourself then he knows at that point but thats an act of defense whether he's afraid of dying or not has nothing to do with cc permits.

Thats the problem Illinois gets to make the rules we don't.

Come and get them pussy! Its loud mouth punks like yourself that flip out and commit crimes like this. Do us all a favor and go hang yourself!

Just sayin;
It's precisely the "your mentalities" that established this country and made it the the single most successful, generous, most free society with the highest standard of living in the shortest period of time on the face of the planet. It's sad that you think that somehow needs to change. The problem is that the culture is changing for the worse with the liberal indoctrination of kids in society through public education and political correctness run amuck. Culture rot and the lack of respect for human life is what we need to be concerned with going forward.